I Guess I Shall Be Executed

58 Responses to “I Guess I Shall Be Executed”

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1. Jen E @ mommablogsalot on September 18th, 2009 12:08 pm

   I really don’t understand it either. I mean, on the one hand, I don’t think the country can tell churches who they can and can’t marry… that’s just totally messing with things where they don’t belong – so while it saddens me that a lot of churches will not go for it – I don’t think we can tell them what to believe, but as far as legality goes – what the heck is the big deal? Let them go to town hall and make it official – or have a beautiful ceremony of their own like a lot of non-religious couples are doing.
   Jen E @ mommablogsalot´s last blog ..Aloha Friday: How Was Your Summer?

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   Jen Reply:
   September 18th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

   Thanks for your reply, Jen.

   I agree with you about leaving the churches alone to make their own choices. My issue is with the government not recognizing gay marriage as a legal in most states. I think the idea of having a nice ceremony is fine, but why not allow them to also have the same legal rights as every other citizen in the country who chooses to be married.

   It really confuses me and I hope that someone responds that is on the opposite side of the argument.

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   Jen E @ mommablogsalot Reply:
   September 18th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

   I totally agree about the legal rights – it truly baffles me that this isn’t allowed.
   Jen E @ mommablogsalot´s last blog ..Aloha Friday: How Was Your Summer?

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2. cutiepiescards on September 18th, 2009 12:34 pm

   I cant help you, b/c I agree with everything you said.

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   Jen Reply:
   September 18th, 2009 at 12:39 pm

   Well, I do appreciate your comment since it is such a hot topic. I always fear that I am going to lose half my readers when I do a post like this.

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3. Amy on September 18th, 2009 12:58 pm

   Wow, can of worms here.
   I’m against gay marriage so I guess I’ll try to do my best. I’m no scholar. I’ve never had training in seminary or anything. But I’ll try to explain my point of view.
   First off, I think that sign up there is wrong. It is taken out of context and it’s sad to see when things like that pop up. It was part of the Law for the Israelites and in fact at that time they did follow that. And more than that, it was part of a list of many sins against marriage not just that one. Since Christ came we are no longer under the law but Christ is still interested in the state of our heart and in fact, in the state of our marriage. There are a few things he was clear on. Lust is a sin of the heart. There are many sexual sins that arise from that such as promiscuity, adultery and yes, homosexuality. The thing of it is, we have a far greater problem for marriages than homosexuality.
   However, this post is about that so the reason I believe that legalized gay marriages are wrong is because I believe that our nation is and should be based on God’s desires for us. He desires that marriages should be between a man and woman. The ultimate issue here is not about gay marriages but about how much God this country will let in. I think God will turn against a nation that goes against His principles. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of their state of wickedness. He flooded the earth because all of humanity had become so evil. So yeah, I think it matters whether we base our laws off of God’s desires.
   It’s really more of a world view issue vs. a view about one law.
   And like I said, I’m not all about laws. If we become too legalistic, God hates that too and we are nothing better than the Pharisees that He preached against. However, I think it’s clear that God is against lust and homosexuality and we shouldn’t sanction it.

   Yikes, this is a scary comment to post.
   Amy´s last blog ..Linkage

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   Jen Reply:
   September 18th, 2009 at 1:17 pm

   Amy,

   I have no idea why you would be scared to post that comment. It was very well-written and it definitely gave me some food for thought. I wouldn’t say that you changed my opinion, but you definitely made me see the logic of other people’s beliefs.

   I would love to read the section in the New Testament where Jesus talks about homosexuality being a sin of the heart. I know that you shouldn’t pick and choose what parts of the bible to read and believe but I do tend to feel more of a connection to the words in the NT. The old testament just seems so confusing but as soon as Jesus comes onto the scene everything begins to come together and make a lot more sense. I’m not biblical scholar at all, but this is just my own reaction to the passages I’ve read. That is why I would love to read His take on this topic.

   Again, thank you for your comment.

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4. Maggie on September 18th, 2009 1:20 pm

   Jen, I Heart you So much!!!!!!! Seriously, I do.

   And to the above poster, Amy, I admire your bravery. Thank you for your honesty.

   Ok,so here’s the deal as I see it. the issue of Gay Marraige isn’t just an issue with religion. It’s an issue of rights. And all of that would be cleared up if the govt would give Civil Unions the rights and not Religious Marraiges. The whole problem is that the power lies in the Religious Marraiges. That should not be. It is every religion’s right, I’d argue by the constitutional freedom of religion, to practice how they want to and in turn marry who they want to without being bothered by it. Just as I have no right to tell a Christian how and who they should marry, they don’t have a right to say the same about my Pagan marraige. And neither does the government. Religious unions are symbolic. They should Never be legal or interfered with by the government, unless that union causes something abhorrent or illegal-like say forced child marraiges.

   If we could all wrap our brains around the legal rights being attached to Civil Unions and let each religion go its own way, then there should be no issue. Because Homosexuals aren’t demanding to be let in on a Christian rite when the Christians believe it is wrong. And there’s a whole host of other examples I’m sure, but this is the one we’re all familiar with. In addition, it allows each religion to tailor its ceremony to its religion and not to the law’s requirements.

   The problem with many marraiges today is that people believe them to simply be a contract-a Piece of Paper. I think that is terribly unfortunate to reduce such a lovely rite of committment to that low standard. Marraige rites should be holy, no matter what religion you are. They should be special, and not because you’re getting a diamond ring and an amazing dress you’ll only wear once. Civil Unions are a legal contract. Civil Unions should be the measure for everyone seeking to claim benefits or inheritance rights.
   Maggie´s last blog ..Efah’s first Adopt-a-Pet event

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   Jen Reply:
   September 18th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

   So, I totally see what you are saying here. What about people who get a liscense and get married at a courthouse–is that legally binding?

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   Maggie Reply:
   September 18th, 2009 at 1:50 pm

   Marriage by a judge may actually be called “marriage” right now because, as far as I know, all legal rights inherent in Marriage are available with that kind of ceremony, unless you state you want a Civil Union. But it should be a Civil Union because the great majority of people who ask to be married by a judge are non-religous and thus are not looking for a ceremonial rite as much as for the legal ability to call their partner “husband” and “wife.” And yes, it is legally binding. You do not have to be a minister to legally perform marriages. I believe all judges have that ability. In some states, simply signing the marriage license is what make it legal. In others, there are certain hand holdings or phrases you have to say in addition to the signing of the license to make it legal.

   I’m not positive of the whole history of Marriage, but I do remember in my medieval studies class that in the medieval period, you were not considered “married” unless you were married in the church, or if you had no money to pay the church, at least on the steps outside of the church. I’m not sure when this began, but prior to the Church being the ruling body in the world, I believe it was the duty of whomever ruled the town, county, whatever to say a couple was Officially married. In fact, in some places, the couple’s name only need be entered in the census as such and it was so.
   Maggie´s last blog ..Efah’s first Adopt-a-Pet event

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   Jen Reply:
   September 18th, 2009 at 5:00 pm

   In our state, we were legally married the night before the wedding when we signed the certificate at the rehearsal.

   Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I feel like I am learning so much from this discussion.

5. Cheryl on September 18th, 2009 1:43 pm

   I’m with you, Jen. What I don’t understand is the argument that by allowing gays to marry, the whole institution is threatened. Um, exactly *how* is your marriage threatened by anyone else getting married- straight or gay? No one seems to be able to answer this question. And for me, it’s not a question of religion; it’s like the Civil Rights Movement all over again. Do we learn nothing from history? Okay, I’m stepping down from my soapbox now. I applaud you for fearlessly sharing your thoughts about this on your blog. *standing ovation*
   Cheryl´s last blog ..Under WHERE?

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   Toastqueen Reply:
   September 18th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

   The whole institution is already threatened by people like Britney Spears, Zsa Zsa Gabor (married 9 times), Mickey Rooney (married 8 times), and Elizabeth Taylor (married 6 times) who make marriage a mockery. I think being in love and wanting to commit with someone the same sex is the least of marriage’s worries!
   Toastqueen´s last blog ..Update of Sorts

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   Jen Reply:
   September 18th, 2009 at 5:20 pm

   I’ll play devil’s advocate and explain why I think that people believe that gay marriage threatens the institution of marriage. I think I have heard or read the argument that if we begin allowing something that is considered by some (not me) as a sin then other things, such as polygamy, beastiality, pedophilia, etc…will become something that society considers legal.

   I agree about Britney and other heterosexual celebs making the institution of marriage a mockery. It is pretty sad.

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   Maggie Reply:
   September 18th, 2009 at 5:42 pm

   Jen, you are right. There are several people who have said that to me. And it makes me a little sad because I don’t want that either. I think where that line lies for “where does it stop?” is in Consent.

   A child cannot consent. An animal cannot consent. Those unions should remain illegal.

   However, multiple people Can consent, and I have no problem with that. As long as it is Consenting Adults getting married. Now, I don’t know what I think about the legalities of benefits in this situation, but I’d sure like to hear it because in this case benefits Would be an issue.
   Maggie´s last blog ..Efah’s first Adopt-a-Pet event

6. Mrs Soup on September 18th, 2009 1:47 pm

   Whatever my religious views are have nothing to do with this debate.

   If we provide tax benefits and other legal rights to a married couple, we should apply them to all couples, regardless of the gender. Especially since Common Law Marriages get them too.

   One or the other. We cannot pick and choose which people get benefits. The end.
   Mrs Soup´s last blog ..You Capture – Up Close and Personal

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   Jen Reply:
   September 18th, 2009 at 5:22 pm

   This is definitely a simple way of looking at the issue. It makes sense to me.

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7. Toastqueen on September 18th, 2009 2:08 pm

   I believe strongly in the separation of Church and State, which is sooooo not followed in the U.S! If we can allow people like Britney Spears to make a mockery of marriage, why would we not allow two people who love each other, regardless of sex, to marry?!? I am all for equal rights, and I don’t think that heterosexuals have done such an outstanding job keeping marriage sacred! Isn’t the divorce rate around 50%? Let’s see if gays can do a better job!
   I’m happily married, but I don’t think a piece of paper makes a commitment. It’s the relationship, the two partners who make it. But, a piece of paper allows rights for the partners, rights that gays are wrongfully denied.
   I am proud to admit that I am a citizen of Massachusetts, one of a very few states that allows for gay marriage!
   Toastqueen´s last blog ..TrueBlood

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   Jen Reply:
   September 18th, 2009 at 5:31 pm

   “Let’s see if gays can do a better job!”

   My guess is that they would have about the same failure rate. I mean we are all human and we all struggle with the same issues. Trust, forgiveness, etc… Marriage is / would be hard work for anyone (gay or straight).

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8. Susan in the Psych Ward on September 18th, 2009 2:11 pm

   All I can say is it’s not our place to judge a single person. Do I think gay marriage should be legal? I can see both sides of the issue and really couldn’t care less if it is. It’s one issue that doesn’t affect me either way. BUT, with that said, I think our society doesn’t take marriage seriously any more anyway, so perhaps it should be legal. And Jen, I admire your bravery on this post and you will NEVER lose me as a reader! I adore you way too much and I hope you know that! We’re all entitled to our opinions and that’s what blogging is all about, right?
   Susan in the Psych Ward´s last blog ..Sweet Auburn! Loveliest village of the plain….

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   Jen Reply:
   September 18th, 2009 at 5:34 pm

   I know the whole “you should never talk about religion and politics with friends” rule but I believe that it should be you should never ARGUE about these topics with friends. Arguing and shouting at one another gets you nowhere. However, if friends are able to listen and keep an open mind then I think there is a lot to be learned from each other.

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9. Deanna on September 18th, 2009 2:17 pm

   Very well said, Amy. I am also against gay marriage for the reasons that you stated.

   The problem here is really a difference in world view. Many Christians believe that people are homosexual because we live in a fallen world where there is sin, lust and perversion. Obviously, people who are not believers in the Bible find this offensive and feel that homosexuals are not sinful or wrong, just expressing their love differently (am I right?). There is no way to reconcile these two points of view. They are polar opposites.

   That said, I wish ill on no one. I don’t want to see anyone discriminated against and I don’t want to see people unable to get health insurance and tax breaks just because of their sexual preference. However, the very definition of marriage is at stake here. It doesn’t affect my marriage, as someone else stated, but where do we draw the line? If the definition of marriage is “one man and one woman” and we change it to “two men” or “two women”, then why not take it one step further? What if one man wants to marry two women? Sound ridiculous? Well, what if they really love each other? What if it makes them happy? What if two relatives want to marry? Why shouldn’t we let them if they are suffering financially because they can’t get married? Many people feel that homosexual marriages will start a downward spiral of questioning what a marriage actually is.

   And Jen, this is way TMI, but I was a virgin when I got married, as were many of my Christian friends. (It does happen.)

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   Jen Reply:
   September 19th, 2009 at 10:10 am

   I think you make some very good points, Deanna.

   There really is a fundamental difference in opinion about homosexuality being a perversion/sin/ choice vs a biological predisposition. It isn’t my belief that being gay is a sin so it is hard to wrap my brain around what is so awful about two men or two women who love each other and want to make a commitment to one another by getting married. It just doesn’t seem like anything bad could come out of it.

   As far as the downward spiral, I’m not so sure that it is inevitable. That’s what laws do. They protect us from things that could harm citizens. Gay marriage harms no one. Marrying a family member does harm someone–the offspring of the couple. As far as polygamy, I am on the fence about that as well because to me if that is what works for those adults then I really don’t have a problem with it either. Personally, I wouldn’t mind having a few more wives around to help me with packing lunches, chores, etc.. The sex business would be impossible for me to deal with but that is me, so that is why I choose a monogamous relationship. But I do have to say the lure of that extra help would be VERY tempting!!

   That is great that you waited until you were married. Really, it is. I wanted to wait, but then I met my husband and all bets were off.

   Thanks for your comment.

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10. Amy on September 18th, 2009 3:05 pm

    Thank you to those that respected my comment. While I’m convinced of my beliefs, it’s hard to put them out there with all the negative (and embarrassing) spin on Christianity that is out there. I don’t want to be lumped with “them”.

    I have to say it hurts a little to read some people think this is similar to the Civil Rights Movement. That was about the color of people’s skin not something that God considered a sin. But yeah, if you take God out of the equation then I guess it is similar. People want rights and are not getting them. But my thing is WHY were they not getting them? One is simply because of skin color the other is something that God sees a sin. It’s not the same type of fight for me.

    I do see everyone’s points and I do believe if you take God out of the equation, of course you should allow it. Why not? I’m very sure two people of the same sex can truly love each other and be committed. Absolutely no doubt. But I truly believe that God and His ways are THE way and not A way. And if I truly believe that, I have to show that in every part of my life. God wouldn’t desire a same sex union (not just marriage), so I don’t either.

    And I agree, heterosexuals are just, if not more, making a mockery of marriage. In fact, some statistics even indicate the divorce rate is higher among Christians than non-Christians. It’s a shame. While that is the case, I don’t think that’s a reason to give up on it.

    Ok, Jen, I’m answering your question about specific verses.

    I highly recommend you read the entire passage, not just these verses but this will get you started.

    And, I should also say that while Christ Himself did not speak these words in some cases, I believe the entire Bible is inspired by God and so it is still something He said. He just used someone else to say it.

    I’m hesitant to put stuff from the Old Testament out there. While I feel comfortable with it, I know people get confused because of the laws and how Christ changed that as recorded in the New Testament. But in general, God did say he made man and woman to be together.

    Genesis 2:24
    “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.”

    Jesus confirmed this belief so we know that didn’t change:

    And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.” (Matthew 19:4-6)

    and He was clearly against homosexuality when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.
    See Genesis 19.

    But as for lust in general in the New Testament….

    1 Peter 4:3
    For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

    2 Peter 2:18
    For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.

    1 John 2:16
    For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world.

    Romans speaks of specific sin of homosexuality:

    Romans 1:26-27
    Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    So basically, it starts with lust and then these other acts follow.

    If you read all of Romans 1, you’ll see that lust is just one of many, many things it speaks against. I truly believe this is at its root, it’s a sin of lust, no better or worse than what I have done so I’m not passing judgment. I’m just saying everything I’ve read in the Bible says that homosexuality and more importantly, lust, is one of many things that we struggle with. Yet, even though we struggle with it doesn’t mean we should condone it, legally (see my first comment) or morally (above).
    Amy´s last blog ..Linkage

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    Jen Reply:
    September 19th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    Amy,

    Thank you so much for taking the time to post these verses for me. I truly appreciate the effort that took and I did go and read them. And for the record, I do not lump you with “them”. From everything that I have read on your blog, you seem to be a great example of Christianity. I respect your opinions and the way you express them very much.

    Ok, so I know that this is where the difference between fundamental Christians and people like me (who believe in God and Jesus but are more open spriitually) occurs. It isn’t that I don’t believe the Bible is God’s words, but I just feel like since it was written by man that it needs to be examined critically.

    I think if Jesus himself (who I believe was speaking for God on earth) did say that homosexuality was a sin than I might (and I mean a big might) have to rethink my feelings. However since you say that Christ Himself did not speak these words (and I confirmed that by reading the passages) I feel like I really want to know His feelings about this.

    For me, the Bible may have been inspired by God’s words but I also think it was inspired by men who wanted to stay in power. Men who already had their own feelings about homosexuality (and everything else they wrote about). The leaders at the time picked and chose what books should or should not be included. Who knows if there was a text out there that Jesus said that homosexuality was not a sin? It is my opinion that we should read the Bible critically and from the perspective that it is men/humans/sinners who wrote most of it. The only parts that I fully believe are the parts from God/Jesus himself.

    I do have a question about the sin of lust thing though. Is the Bible saying that having desires for my husband is a sin. If not, then how could it be a sin to have thoughts for your homosexual spouse?

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    Amy Reply:
    September 19th, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    Because God sanctions that relationship. You are one in His eyes. He would not accept lust between a wife and another man. It’s all about the relationship and whether God permits that or not.

    As for the Bible that is just something we all have to decide. I believe it’s all inspired by God and that Jesus is Gid and therefore His words too.
    Amy´s last blog ..Twitter: I miss you, Facebook: not so much

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11. Heather on September 18th, 2009 3:37 pm

    OK, I have been thinking about this all day and just now been able to sit down and throw down all my thoughts in a semi-organized manner…sorry it’s long, but it does have facts, references, and interesting info about the topic…as well as my opinion. ) Here is my 2 cents (or dollar hahaha):

    The person holding this sign is really taking the bible verse out of context. The verse is from Dueteronomy, which is one of the first books in the old testament. In the old testament, before Jesus came, there were many laws and rituals that the people had to do to be considered “pure” or “forgiven.” These lawes/rituals are referred to as “The Law” in the bible. The great thing is that when God sent Jesus (his son) to the world to save humanity from their sins Jesus cancelled out “The Law.” From Jesus’ birth on through time simply trusting in Jesus as your personal savior and asking him for forgiveness was enough to cleanse you, rather than sacrificing animals, performing rituals, or being bound to the law.

    Why is the “Law” still there then? It is to show us where we came from (being bound by sacrifices/rituals/laws) and how much better life is with Jesus as our personal savior. So, the man holding that sign is quoting an old “Law” that is wiped away because of the birth of Christ.

    I respect your decision to support gay marriage, though I do not. I don’t support it because, yes, it is contradictory to the Bible (Which is capitalized just like any other book is). I am a christian (Baptist to be specific) and know that everyone sins (Romans 3:23- for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God). That means I sin, my husband sins, the priests/pastors/monks/nuns/pope sins, children sin, etc etc etc. Now, something that I believe along with many churches (Though not the Catholic church I think- someone correct me if I am wrong) is that all sins are equal, and regardless of which sin you commit we are all found guilty because of sin. With that pretense I will state that according to the Bible, which is the word of God, homosexuality is a sin.

    Below are several verses that reference this:

    Leviticus 18:22 – “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.”

    Leviticus 20:13 – “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

    (NOTE THESE FIRST 2 VERSES ARE FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT AND UNDER THE OLD LAW, BUT BELOW IS A VERSE FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT AFTER JESUS HAS COME TO SAVE US)

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 – “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

    (NOTE IT IS NOT JUST HOMOSEXUALS WHO DON’T REPENT WHO WILL NOT GO TO HEAVEN, BUT ALSO GREEDY PEOPLE, DRUNKARDS, AND LIARS)

    1 Corinthians 6:11 – “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

    (THIS VERSE IS SAYING THAT YES, SOME OF YOU WERE DOING THESE THINGS…BUT, IF YOU JUST ASK FOR FORGIVENESS THAN ANYONE CAN BE WASHED CLEAN AND GO TO HEAVEN)

    So, basically God treats homosexuality just like lying, stealing, cheating, etc. As long as the person repents of their sins and trusts in Christ as their savior they will go to heaven when they die. Simple as that )

    I agree that the country has a screwed up view on marriage and that marriages are not a great example now-a-days. That is not God’s problem though, but rather humans. I don’t think people take marriage seriously anymore, and therefor feel it is ok to break the covanent whenver they so please. Marriage in the biblical sense is loving your spouse as Christ loved the church (unconditionally) and protecting them forever. I try to maintain this idea of marriage in my own relationship, and definitely recognize that the words on a paper don’t mean anything unless you work at it.

    I read your blog, and was not offended… It is your opinion and you are entitled to that. I hope I explained the other side of the argument a little more for you and didn’t overwhelm you with my chatter. Sorry if I did.

    Lastly, to the person who said they strongly believe in the separation of church and state I would like to know what they define as “separation of church and state.” SO many people misquote this phrase and think it means something totally opposite of what it does. Thomas Jefferson clearly lays out the meaning in this quote by him:

    Thomas Jefferson made clear that the purpose of the First Amendment was to establish a “wall of separation” between Church and State in order to protect individuals’ right of conscience:

    “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.” (LINK is http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html)

    If you read this closely and really examine what it is saying, it is saying that STATE should stay out of CHURCH, not the other way around. One of the reasons that colonists came to the USA was to escape the tyranny of England and the churches there that were run by the state and gave people who attended no freedom over what they believed in religion. That is why Thomas Jefferson sent a letter to clarify to all that in this new country, the USA, church was not to be run like that. He stated that it was rather a place to let people have their natural rights and let religion be between man and God as they pleased, not man+government+God.

    Hopefully that clears up that issue as well )

    Others feel free to respond, and I am interested in what Jen has to say on my comments )

    Sincerely,
    Heather
    Heather´s last blog ..Update on Life

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    Amy Reply:
    September 18th, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    We basically have the same post but use different verses and yet arrive at the same conclusion
    Amy´s last blog ..Linkage

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    Maggie Reply:
    September 18th, 2009 at 5:00 pm

    Heather, like Amy, I respect your strong beliefs. And I love that we are all having this discussion because I am rarely able to have this discussion without people getting angry at one another and yelling. Everyone is so passionate about their side it’s hard not to talk about it without losing one’s cool.

    Anyways, my thoughts on the quote/meaning of Separation of Church and State are inserted within the quote itself:

    “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions,”

    [Me] Absolutely 100% agree with this! It is the basis of not only my belief in this separation, but also in Freedom of Religion and why I love our country so much.

    ” I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

    [Me] This seems to be where the breakdown of opinions/interpretations resides. Where you say that this is dictating that State shall not dictate Church, but Church can certainly dictate State. I do not believe you can have one separation without the other. Namely because we are not a Christian Only nation. If you allow the Christian Church to dictate the rules of the State, then the State will be interfering with other religions and their beliefs. And if that is allowed, then there is truly no religious freedom, except for Christians.

    “Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.” (LINK is http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html)

    [Me] “convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.”
    This part is completely up to interpretation because he is unclear as to which is attached to religion. Unless I’m missing something due to the period’s language. Either way, he doesn’t specify that he is giving the Christian Church means to dictate rules of the State.

    I strongly believe in Freedom of Religion for All and that is precisely why Separation of Church and State on both sides is important to me. I want both you and I to have every right to believe and worship the way we choose without the law coming into play. If we can accomplish that, then my hope is that we won’t Have to have these issues which we believe could threaten our beliefs. Of course, Nothing is perfect, but it’s a good start.
    Maggie´s last blog ..Efah’s first Adopt-a-Pet event

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    Jen Reply:
    September 19th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    Deanna,

    I want to preface my response by saying that I am not arguing with you. I respect your beliefs and the way you express them. I am just questioning things to firgure things out for myself.

    Ok, there is so much here to respond to so I will start with church and state first. Here is how I see it:

    Church…marries people.

    State…recognizes marriages as legal and gives certain rights/benefits to the married.

    If a church doesn’t want to marry gay people for their beliefs that is totally fine (that is their freedom as an American to practice this religious belief), but the church may not get involved in the state’s decision to recognize that marriage, just as the state may not get involved with their practices.

    Now, back to the Bible stuff. I replied to Amy’s comment above with my feelings about Jesus’ message. The bottom line is that I try to follow the Great Commandment: Love God, love others, love yourself. He showed us forgiveness, tolerance and peace. I think that is what He wanted for us. Since He does not mention gay marriage in this (or even sexual immorality), I don’t believe that is what He wanted us to focus on.

    I think that His Apostles were human and were not speaking/writing as God on earth. They were influenced by Jesus but they were also humans who were greatly influenced by the law and the morals of that time period. I’m not saying that these laws/morals are wrong–not at all. I’m just saying that I don’t believe that it was Jesus’ message. I think they may have put their own spin on things. I also think that the rulers of the time didn’t include all the books written because they may have gone against the rules of the time. Everything should be looked at very critically because of this fact.

    You mentioned that marriages are breaking down, but it is my belief that marriages have never been the way Jesus would have wanted. Some, yes but a lot, no. Yes, there may not have been many divorces, but in the past men thought it was fine to beat women, have mistresses, and generally not honor their marriage vows just because they were men. The couple may have stayed together but it wasn’t as you described ” loving your spouse as Christ loved the church” I am glad that divorce is now an easy option if there is abuse or infidelity.

    I hope I expressed my feelings in a way that doesn’t come off as argumentative. That wasn’t my intention.

    Thanks again for your comment.

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    Jen Reply:
    September 19th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    Oops, this comment was directed to Heather. Sorry about that.

12. Happy Hour Sue on September 18th, 2009 7:03 pm

    I am TOTALLY for gay marriage – what’s the problem? It’s only love, people, find something better to worry about.

    BTW I *** heart*** Fox News.
    Happy Hour Sue´s last blog ..Weekend LOL Video

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    Jen Reply:
    September 19th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    Fox News is AWESOME!! The people on there crack me up!

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13. Sarah on September 18th, 2009 8:47 pm

    I feel that it’s up to God to judge and no one else as we have all sinned in some way. No one is perfect. Why do people feel the need to get SO involved in other people’s private lives? If you feel it’s a sin, that’s fine. Don’t be a homosexual. No one is forcing you to. But the judging……do people judge that harshly about all sins? Lying, cheating, stealing, adultery? If that were so we’d all be wearing scarlet letters for something or other.

    I hope that made some sense, I’m pretty tired.
    Sarah´s last blog ..A Friday Funny

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    Jen Reply:
    September 19th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    Yes, it made total sense to me. I’m not even sure I believe that God is judging us. I believe that is up to us to foster a relationship with God and if we are too wrapped up in things on earth (yes, that mean me too and my obsession with the Gos) then it takes away from our relationship with Him. I personally think if we are living without God on earth than our spirit won’t be able to find Him in the next life.

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    Jen Reply:
    September 19th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    Oh and I think it is man who judges, but God who forgives and loves unconditionally. It is just that we don’t always want or make His love a priority.

    Just my humble opinion.

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14. Shannon on September 18th, 2009 8:48 pm

    I also tend to stay away from the topic of politics.

    A) because usually I don’t know what I’m talking about, and

    B) I don’t want to look or sound like I don’t know what I’m talking about!

    But, my two cents on this post is that I have no problems with gay marriage. And I do feel gay couples should be given the same legal rights as same-sex couples.
    Shannon´s last blog .."He is the kindest and best of men."

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    Jen Reply:
    September 19th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    This post is definitely going outside my blogging comfort zone, but I’m glad that I wrote it. I have thoroughly enjoyed everyone’s comments and the discussion.

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15. Smellyann on September 19th, 2009 3:28 am

    I am conflicted, because on the one hand, I am Christian, and on the other hand, I’m a liberal, tree-hugger type who thinks, “Don’t like gay marriage? Then don’t have one!”

    In the end, I believe that in this country, we should all have equal rights. We should ALL have freedom of religion, freedom of speech, etc. – and we should all be afforded the same privileges, rights, responsibilities, trials, tribulations and joys that marriage allows, no matter whom we love.

    Is homosexuality a sin? I believe, yes. Did God create men and women as homosexual? I believe, yes. It is not a CHOICE. It is biological. I’d say more, but it’s 4:30 AM and I’m afraid I’m starting to go off on tangents!
    Smellyann´s last blog ..Saturday 9: The Last Time

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    Jen Reply:
    September 19th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    I think we are pretty much on the same page. I never thought I was a liberal, tree-hugger type, but the older I get the more I become that way.

    I believe with every fiber of my being that people who are homosexuals don’t choose to be that way. I think that comes from having a family member that is gay. Growing up with her, there was no question that it was in her biological makeup. So that is why I believe that it can’t be a sin. If God made us that way, how is that even possible? I know the argument of choosing to act on these desires is the part that is a sin, but I’m just not buying it. Sorry. I think that same thing could be said for heterosexuals choosing to act on their biological desires to have sex. If that were the case, and everyone chose not to sin we’d all be extinct by now.

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    Amy Reply:
    September 19th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    The funny thing is I believe people are born like that too. But I also believe it s a choice. Let me explain. I believe God created perfection but when Adam and eve sinned humans became sinful by nature. his said our heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. So yeah I do think someone can struggle with that naturally. We all hve certain things that are a struggle for us. Some have anger some have pride or impatience. Some struggle with lust. It is our choice though how we act out on that though.

    And I do have a very good friend that is a Christian and struggles with this. We all have issues but it’s our job to try to lead a
    life pleasing to God. We will never be perfect but it doesn’t mean God doesn’t bless the effort.

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    Amy Reply:
    September 19th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    I also should clarify that I don’t think we earn our salvation. It’s simply faith through grace. But if we love Him we naturally want to please Him. So I don’t think someone is not a Christian just because they struggle with this any more than anything else.

    

    Jen Reply:
    September 19th, 2009 at 4:14 pm

    We do all struggle and that is part of being human. It is my belief that Jesus tried to teach us how to overcome those struggles and be closer to Him through prayer and forgiveness. He wanted us to have peace within our hearts/souls. I don’t think that is possible if we are doing mean and evil things that hurt other people. If God/Holy Spirit is in all of us, then it is just impossible.

    However, I still don’t believe homosexuality is a sin. It isn’t hurting anyone else. I guess it would be a sin if the person lived with guilt and shame for their desires and actions. To me that is what makes a sin…being separate from God. If we feel like we’ve done something wrong then we feel guilty and we might not feel worthy of God’s love. So we turn away from His light and live in darkness. I guess I just don’t feel that loving another person and sharing that love would ever displease God.

16. Smellyann on September 19th, 2009 3:30 am

    Mm. I just re-read what I wrote. In the “no matter whom we love” part, obviously I mean as long as both are consenting adult humans. Please don’t marry a newborn piglet and expect my applause!
    Smellyann´s last blog ..Saturday 9: The Last Time

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    Jen Reply:
    September 19th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    lol!! I knew what you meant in the first comment. There is a line and it definitely would be crossed with a newborn piglet. The sad thing is there is probably some website out there that has people who love piglets as a fetish. Ugh.

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17. tyne on September 19th, 2009 3:41 pm

    Golly! That is a freakin’ great discussion! I love the RESPECT that everyone is showing for others and their opinions.

    I am swamped with my kids so I just have one moment to chime in on something…

    The covenant of marriage between a man and a woman is one that was designed by GOD to illustrate the love that Christ has for the church. In Revelation, the church is referred to as “The Bride of Christ.” While there are other earthly illustrations to show the love that God demonstrates for people, the covenant of marriage is one of the most clear and significant.

    I think this is a reason why Christians, in particular, are overly protective of it. In my opinion, it is also the reason why the covenant of marriage is so attacked by Satan and the world- look at the divorce rates among Christians and Non-Christians alike.
    tyne´s last blog ..Rockin’ the Horsie Guitar and Christy Nockels

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    Jen Reply:
    September 19th, 2009 at 4:33 pm

    I know! It really has been wonderful reading everyone’s thought-provoking and well written responses to this issue.

    I think that marriage can teach us a lot about unconditional love, patience, forgiveness, etc…I guess that is why I think that God would want anyone to enter into this spiritual covenant because it is a beautiful thing. It isn’t always easy, but if you work at it there are a lot of lessons to be learned.

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18. Amy @ My Friend Amy on September 19th, 2009 4:21 pm

    I’m a Christian but I think as long as the govt. leaves churches alone as far as whom they are willing to marry, it should be legal.

    Or marriage should become purely a religious thing and we should just have civil unions for everybody. This is how it works in a lot of countries.

    I just can’t find any reason why it shouldn’t be legal.

    I think part of the major fight is also the tax exempt status. For example, if a church owns property open to the public and they let heterosexuals marry there but not homosexuals they’ll lose their tax exempt status. And that’s just going to get into a lot of how I feel about the church and money which is off topic but what I mean to say is some of this issue runs deep, complex, and into other things.

    I do wonder, though, if polygamy will make a fight to become legal once homosexual marriage is. Because honestly, I can’t really see why it shouldn’t be as long as all adults are consenting.
    Amy @ My Friend Amy´s last blog ..It’s a Wrap!

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    Jen Reply:
    September 19th, 2009 at 4:45 pm

    Hmmm…I didn’t really consider the tax exempt status issue. But I don’t know if that is actually true. If so, the Catholics would have lost their tax-exempt status a long time ago. They have tons of rules about who they will and won’t marry.

    I do think you bring up a really good point though. I think that a lot of the Church’s teachings, laws, etc… are about power and money. That is why I try to look at everything with a critical eye. I’m not saying that Churches are evil, but I do think their intentions aren’t always in the right place.

    Good point about polygamy. I think it may become legal at some point too. I would have no problem with it as well.

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    Amy @ My Friend Amy Reply:
    September 19th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    OH sorry I wasn’t clear enough!! I don’t mean if they marry them in the church, I mean if they have property that’s open to the public and they a heterosexual couple marry there and not a homosexual couple.
    It happened in this case
    Amy @ My Friend Amy´s last blog ..It’s a Wrap!

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19. Amy @ My Friend Amy on September 19th, 2009 4:55 pm

    Trying again
    Amy @ My Friend Amy´s last blog ..It’s a Wrap!

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20. P2P » Blog Archive » On Same-sex Marriages on September 19th, 2009 6:10 pm

    [...] see the rest of this comment and many other opinions here. No TweetBacks yet. (Be the first to Tweet this post) addthis_url = [...]

21. Karen on September 19th, 2009 8:57 pm

    I’m with you on this one! I don’t see what the big deal is. You’d think we were living back in the Stone Age!
    Karen´s last blog ..Because you asked…

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22. misty on September 21st, 2009 8:55 am

    I know you have a butt load of comments so I almost didn’t say anything- (and I obviously did not read all of them) but here is my minimal bullet post response:

    1- The sign is stupid and here is why: It states something (obviously paraphrased) claiming it is from a large chunk of verses. The problem with paraphrasing is that there can be important things missing. As well intentioned as the sign maker may have been, it was an ignorant attempt.

    2- I am a Christian. And by Christian I do not mean that I make it a habit of sitting in judgement of other people and their choices. I know that the world view of Christians (which has, unfortunately been caused by the actions of Christians) has become a negative one… I do believe in Jesus, I do read my Bible, I do pray and I do try (and often fail) to be a good example of love.

    3- I too support Gay marriage. And here is why: Marriage now is NOTHING like marriage in Biblical times. Nothing. And I don’t think that marriage then was how God intended it either. There was laws, political rulings etc, in those times too. What people tend to forget is that the Bible isn’t simply a book of “rules” but it is also a historical gathering of things that happened in that time frame.

    4- When questioned about why I believe that homosexual people have the right to get married AND consider myself a Christian is simple: A man (or woman’s) heart is between them and God- whether they acknowledge Him or not. At the end of the day, a person’s thoughts, actions and choices rest between him and God. A man who is adulterous; deceitful; going to move on to molest his children; a rapist; abusive, etc- has the right to marry whomever he chooses. Marriage, in our American society anyway- is completely separate from ANYTHING the Bible says. They have NOTHING to do with each other. Nothing. “Spare the Rod, Spoil the child” is in Proverbs and yet I don’t see groups of narrow minded people rallying against the discrimination of child abuse. PEOPLE have a right to love and commit to the people they love. It is human decency.

    5- Christians NEVER have the right to judge. In fact, in the 10 commandments when it mentions not taking the Lord’s name in vain, I personally believe that is less like “God Da**” and more like: misquoting Bible versus; hating others in the “name of God”; and using one’s “religious convictions” to slander others/ bomb abortion clinics/etc.

    6- (this is my last point, I promise) We live in America. THE LAND OF OPPORTUNITY… a FREE country. The moral of that story is- the government needs to control as LITTLE of our lives as possible. The convictions as to whether we should, or should not marry or do anything- that’s between one’s own heart and God.

    That’s all.
    misty´s last blog ..It’s beginning to look a lot like a GIVEAWAY…

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    Jen Reply:
    September 21st, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    Fantastic comment! I’m so glad you decided to respond.

    I now realize the error of the sign, but I am still glad that I posted it. It opened up a great discussion and I feel like I have learned a lot and have a lot more respect for the other side of the argument.

    It sounds like we are pretty much on the same page, but I especially have to agree with you about this point:

    “What people tend to forget is that the Bible isn’t simply a book of “rules” but it is also a historical gathering of things that happened in that time frame.”

    I was just saying the same thing to my friend yesterday.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

    [Reply]

23. Julia Smith on September 21st, 2009 4:03 pm

    Amazing post, Jen – and wonderful, non-ridiculous comments from everyone!

    I definitely agree with Maggie:

    ‘If you allow the Christian Church to dictate the rules of the State, then the State will be interfering with other religions and their beliefs.’

    I’m a duel citizen of the US and Canada. I live in Nova Scotia where it is legal to be gay and married at the same time. In fact, I scan official documents at my job, and I’ve scanned quite a few marriage certificates between same sex couples. Every time I handle one, I realize its precious historical significance.

    I’d like to share a famous quote from former Canadian prime minister Pierre Trudeau, who pushed for the decriminalization of homosexuality and saw the law passed in parliament in 1969:

    “There’s no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation.”
    Julia Smith´s last blog ..Poetry Train Monday – 119 – Terribly Lucky

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24. katelin on September 21st, 2009 5:18 pm

    i completely agree with you on this one. and that sign is so appropriate for everyone that uses the bible to deter gay marriage, completely.
    katelin´s last blog ..Guerneville is the new hot spot.

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25. Michelle on September 25th, 2009 4:08 am

    I’ve loved reading the comments to this post. I have nothing new or interesting to add to the debate but it felt wrong to spend so much time reading all of this to not comment in some way. Even though my own opinion of gay marriage hasn’t changed (for it, by the way) it is certainly interesting to read other points of view.
    Michelle´s last blog ..Friday Finds, my first

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